2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry".

Monday, March 3, 2008

An open Response to Carlos Shelton AKA Iggy


John,

I just listened to Tony’s interview with you on your blog, The Down Grade and it was very revealing.

First off I want to say you seem a very nice guy and very personable… this does not always translate on the blogosphere or in the forums we both tend to travel. I appreciate that you are not as much on the attack as I had thought you were… and please as you read this realize I have a friendly smile and do so in a way that I hope is as a friend and brother in Christ and not an enemy. This is not an attack on you at all... just some observations.

I hope that you are a brother in Christ, Carlos. I must say that in response to an earlier comment at my blog, you believed that my conversion might be lacking. I wish to clarify and say again that I have realized my sin, repented of it by confessing and forsaking it, and turned to faith in Christ. This action was not of myself, because I have been saved by grace through faith-and this is not of myself, it is a gift of God, not of works. The grace and the faith- even the ability to repent- came from Christ. Outside of the Father's drawing, I can do nothing good. 



Man there are some major errors in your theology! I mean that in the nicest way…

Let me explain one area for starters…

God is sovereign… I hope we agree. Yes, we agree, but your definition is lacking in depth. 

Yet you state that there are some things God “cannot do” like lie. The Scripture states that, Iggy:Hebrews 6:18: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us...

Titus 1:2: ...In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began... 


You have created a major contradiction. For if God is sovereign, then nothing is impossible. If God cannot do something and is “bound” to it, then God is subject to the thing He is “Bound” to… God is not longer sovereign… the thing He is bound to becomes sovereign over God.

Now, it is not that God “cannot do” this or that, but “will not” do something as it is against His nature to do that thing. So you are limiting your Sovereign God and making him less than sovereign. I will agree that cannot was a poor choice of words. He will not, because it is not in his nature to sin would be much more accurate. However, this holds true in his judgement according to his law. God is a righteous judge, he will not allow those who have broken His law into heaven with him. He has set the standard of His moral law, he has promised that his wrath will abide on those who have broken His law. In a human sense, he is bound by his justice 
because God will not lie, or break his promises. Again, words lack power to describe God perfectly. He can be both sovereign and choose to put limitations on Himself. He is all powerful, but he can choose to limit his power. He is all just, yet he is all merciful. How is that possible? Because He is God. He can choose to do what he wants, but within his revealed character, he cannot and will not do certain things. Yet he is still sovereign.

If God is not sovereign then He cannot be just, but must bow to the justice of the thing He is bound to. God will not do some things as it is against His Character. He does things because of His Name as it is because of His character to do or to not to do. If you take away God’s will and bind Him in anyway, I do not bind Him, he binds Himself. He can do that, He is God. then He cannot be sovereign. If He cannot choose to forbear, or be patient to not judge immediately? I would argue this self-sufficient choice proves he is sovereign. Boy, talk about putting God in a box?! God may limit Himself as He did in the incarnation as Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6-7) and became totally dependant on the Father by the Holy Spirit. (John 5:19)


Get that so far? I do, Carlos. Do you?

God in Truth….

God is Truth and Jesus is the Truth Incarnate. To know Truth we need to know Jesus.
Amen We do not approach God from our view of Truth but from His. Jesus states in John 5: 39-40. “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Without the Person Who is Truth Incarnate and without first having the Life that is in the Son you cannot have Truth. We may have a perception of Truth but it will only be relative to our own limited knowledge. So to say that we are to seek God in Truth is backwards… God reveals His Truth to us and we gain understanding of Truth by that revelation by what is called the “renewing of the mind”. We cannot seek God in truth, only he can draw us into truth. We must worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, which means, only if we are new creatures in Christ can we worship the father rightly. He does reveal this truth to us, and we cannot know Jesus except if we know the truth (Jesus) which will set us free. This is an immediate and progressive action. The first action is justification, where man is drawn by God to Christ, and man responds by faith given him by God. When we place this faith in Christ, we become new creatures in Christ. 
Unfortunately, many people call themselves Christians will face the judgement in Matthew 7 when Jesus says to them 'I never knew you.' They claim they knew Jesus, but in this ultimate judgement, they did not know Jesus Christ in truth. They might have known the Jesus that is all love and all forgiveness, and this Jesus may have motivated them to good works in his name but they never knew Him, because they never knew the truth. They were never converted, or they were false converts. I am afraid that this describes probably 70% of the 22 billion believers Tony claims. Why? because by their fruit we shall know them. A fruit tree does not produce thorns.
(Romans 12:2) This is called regeneration and is the process in which we are transformed on this side of the New Creation Huh? Do you mean heaven? until we receive our New Bodies in the fulfillment of the New Creation. We are already new creatures in Christ, we have already been baptized into his death and resurrection (Romans 6) And we are being mad into the image of Christ as we walk this earth, and when we do go to heaven, we shall be like Him. 

That is why to place regeneration ahead of salvation is a bit dangerous as it implies one has already arrived. As we are “Born of Heaven” or “Born from above” which is the literal translation of being “born again” we begin the process of regeneration that comes to its fulfillment when we are in the New Creation. (Titus 3:5) You might note in Titus 3:5 that it is “the washing” which is not the same as “having been washed” it is a process that begins and continues until we are “renewed” by the Holy Ghost at the Resurrection, as stated in verse 7 if you stay in context.
This is a false interpretation. Salvation is an immediate spiritual reality; we are justified (declared not guilty, and proclaimed righteous) by Grace (Romans 3:24, 26). The washing that you describe is part of sanctification, which is part of salvation. Our word salvation is like our word love; it is totally inadequate to describe what has happened and will happen. We have been saved (justification) we are being saved (sanctification) will will be saved (glorification)
Salvation is both a settled issue as well as a progressive issue that will not be complete until we have been made like Him. The Titus passage does this quite well, the washing of regeneration is a once and continual action, similar to you, Carlos. You took a shower yesterday (I don't know if Montanans take daily showers) are you still clean today? Only partially. Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirt in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs. 

So we may agree that one need be born of heaven, yet I think that you miss the nuance of what is actually going on by the system of theology you use. Not at all, I think many miss the nuance of salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.  

It is not as you stated. “to believe rightly”… in fact, you miss the subtle nuance of the passage in which it is that if one believes they are not condemned and in that if they do not believe they are condemned already. It is not in the “belief” but the person that one is saved. Or as Jesus stated, “so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (John 3 14-15) So what you have done and is done most often unintentionally is switch the focus from belief in Him to being saved by one’s “Belief” and even more narrow, a “rightly believed, belief” … and this is what Plato taught and was known as Gnosticism… to believe in our own beliefs or abstract thoughts or the immaterial … as if it was a higher reality than the material. This is dangerous as it is subtly moving salvation being based on “the Person of Jesus Christ come in the flesh” to “immaterial abstract beliefs” and as John teaches in 1 John 4: 2. “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” So if I was not as nice as I was I would point out that you have allowed the Spirit of anti Christ replace the Person of Jesus if you assert that it is our belief that saves us… of course I do not think you believe that, but as I listened to you talk to Tony Jones… that is exactly what you stated and I heard.
I do not believe that belief saves us, Clearly that is not the case. Salvation starts with and ends with God's sovereign choice. You are completely taking out of context my words. I have stated above that the scripture clearly states we must know Jesus in truth. The word belief is again mistranslated or a weak version of the Greek word. Belief in the context of John 3:16 is more than an intellectual knowledge, it is trust and commitment to Christ as Lord and Savior, which produces a new nature, a change of heart, and obedience to the Lord. We cannot do this ourselves- It is the gift of God. He produces the belief, he allows us the proper response. We are indeed born from above, it is God's action, that is appropriated by us through faith which I have stated repeatedly comes from God. 

Now, “What makes a Christian” is not as important as how one is brought to and finds salvation. I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.  Often what makes a “Christian” is reduced to being religious. I hate religion, religion is simply man's lame attempt at finding ways to please God in himself. Jesus stated that we are to believe and do. Not just believe. But we must believe to be a Christian. So much focus is on just believing and not doing. In fact much of the doing is man made busy work… and misses the “works of God” done in and through us. I agree, but we must be before our works can glorify God. If we have, by God's grace, believed and placed our faith in Christ, the spiritual result is good works. Otherwise, these works you describe are just religious acts. 

Yet here you also stated that some confess things like "baptism saves us"... and yet, there are those like Chris Rosebrough who goes to the Lutheran church... and believes just this! Yet, you are more concerned that Tony thinks that most do not "think" this way, while you ignore Chris Rosebrough teaching others what you have just condemned... http://www.blogger.com/www.extremetheology.com

I know you will then say, that you are not responsible for Chris, yet then how are you responsible for Tony or me or anyone for that matter?I am not responsible for anyone but myself, but I am concerned for you and Tony, and, if Chris believes that, I am also concerned for Him. I know Lutherans who do not believe that Baptism saves, but believe that is is a covenant baptism, trusting that infants when baptized and raised in the faith will come into the faith at the age of accountability. This is similar to Anglican teaching. It does not always work that way. 


I see an agenda a mile wide and in a huge steaming pile and the consistent refusal to face your "comrades in arms". In fact as you stated you are a Cal-Minian, which is fine with me, yet Ken Silva would state flat out you are a semi-pelagian and have a man loving man based faith… and as I listen to you I would actually agree! How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. 
Now as I listen to Ingrid and Ken, Ingrid teaches a gospel of "works righteousness" as well as Ken Silva who teaches so many things that not only condemn emergents, but almost every single person who contributed to Christian History!
Works do not make us righteous, they do not justify us. But those who have been born again and have a new nature desire to do right things. These result in works. Indeed, we have been 'created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do' 

Again, you seem to be blind to all that... and focus on the gnat while the camel swallows you.
Twisted scripture. I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings. 

You are in the minority and in that minority there is a huge contradiction. You have Lutherans and Calvinists saying that we must be like them, when historical Luther did not like Calvin though Calvin liked Luther... Zwingli agreed with all points with Luther except over the Lord's Supper and Luther refused to talk to Zwingli ever again after their meeting.
So, which tradition of man are we supposed to follow all in the name of being reformed?
Jesus.

Again, if someone on your "side" studied some history there might be a breakthrough... we might find common ground and actually seek real Unity in the faith. Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.

Did you know according to Dr David Calhoun at Worldwide Theological Seminary, which is a reformed school that the teaching of Grace might have been lost if it was not for the Christian Mystics? That these men inspired Augustine, Aquinas, St Bernard, which inspired Luther, and Calvin and all the great reformers?

What we have is a huge lump of ignorance attacking others out of their ignorance...

Did you realize that the one who gave us St Anthony of the Desert also was instrumental in giving us the present canon of scripture as well as the Nicene Creed?

Again, this is how dangerous people like Ken Silva and Ingrid are...

Did you know that Ingrid pushed a form of Contemplative prayer on her own blog while attacking others for practicing it?
Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself

I mean you guys always attack the Emerging church on thing and call us to be like you, yet we look at history and wonder which "you" are we to be? It seems that you can't even decide which one you should be... and you want us to be like you, and you claim all this certainty?
I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. 

I stand here again calling you and your friends to repentance in the Name of Jesus... that you would seek Unity in the Faith in Christ and not around your man made indecisive doctrines. 
I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them. 

The bottom line is that when I listened to you speak and noted that you are attending John MacArthur’s Masters Institute… working on a Masters degree… and you state that the emerging church or emergent are “hard to nail down” or “some squishy or untidy language being used” and I hear you contradict yourself all over and as I pointed out… I wonder what is being taught at that and other seminaries.
I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared. 

Again, John this is not meant to be harsh or mean or whatever, but just what I have observed and heard from your camp and from you. 

Now realize we have not even gotten into your view of the atonement and how you seem to deny the finished works of Christ on the Cross by stating that God is “bound” to punish those according to the Law. He is bound by himself to judge rightly, according to his perfect, holy standard. No In fact you contradict Jesus own words by saying that God is bound to “judge” mankind… John 5:22 flat out states the contrary to your assertion. “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” In context, we see Jesus as a man has 'set aside' willingly his Godhood (Ph 2:6-11) during his incarnation. God has granted him in his incarnation judgement, life giving power, etc. is what the bible teaches. In fact Jesus goes on to say that “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” But those who do not believe are condemned already-verse 19- in opposition to the teachings of McLaren, Pagitt, Jones, and Bell (you might recongnize John 3:17 there) to condemn means that Jesus would judge it, yet scripture also states, “-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:29) but what you are missing is who and how people who do evil will be judged. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:15-16) which leads us to how one will be judged, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (John 12: 47-48)

First notice why one will be judged besides doing evil. It is because they rejected Jesus, they are not judge because God is bound by the Law… it is because they rejected Jesus. Who was the propitiation- the final and total payment- for the debt we owe because we sinned
Second, notice that it is by the Words that Jesus spoke… for as scripture states, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” (Romans 8:6). Jesus dealt with sin on the Cross and in with that we are only faced with the wages of Sin… which is death. What do dead men need most? Life! The Life is in the Son… Christ died “once for all” or as scripture states, “he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Notice that last phrase, as it is very important in understanding the Cross… “to do away with sin” or as John the Baptist stated, “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. You confuse the propitiation of sin with salvation, for as Roman 5:10 plainly states; “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

We are saved through His Life… yet you are still saying that God is bound by the Law that Jesus fulfilled for those who would believe and must punish mankind by that demands of the Law for those who choose not to believe . This is not the proper understanding of the Law at all. The Law was to reveal sin and show that wrath was stored up for us, yet instead we find God is longsuffering and kind and gave his only Son to die in our place so that we may have new life by the power of the Resurrection. People who reject Jesus reject their own salvation. It is that simple. People reject Jesus, and choose God's wrath instead of his mercy, by trying to works that please God, and by refusing to turn to Christ in faith. 

There is much more John that I would love to talk about with you. I do hope this will lead you into a deeper understanding of what our great faith is about and that we share.

Be blessed,

iggy
Backatcha
John

13 comments:

iggy said...

John,

I am a brother in Christ as I am saved by grace through faith. When I stated that your conversion might be lacking please take that in context and believe me it was not as you are stating above. I stated that in the context of this interview, the explanation of your “experience” lacked clarity and could be contrasted as being a false conversion of works.

Now we are not that far apart in our theology, in fact we are very close, yet I think there are some things you seem to even miss now.

I stated that salvation was by the Fathers drawing so we respond to what He initiates. This is not works anymore than the child “works” in his own conception and birth. The mother is pushing, and the child will react to the contractions, yet the child wills not his own birth any more than we will our spiritual. It is out of a humble spirit we receive Grace by faith. (God gives grace to the humble scripture)

You stated that my definition of Sovereignty lacks depth, but notice that in the end, you came to the same conclusion and agreed with me that you were not as clear as you ought to have been. I affirm that the bible states as you quoted, yet again this is where one need be careful, as English is not the best in some choice of understanding verses’... Another point would be that Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” KJV creates many issues but if taken in other verses we understand that the word is calamity which means more like disasters and such which God uses at times to judge. Yet, if we are not careful then we will create theology that hinders God’s sovereignty instead of give more understanding to it.

Again, as I stated, youc ontridict the bible as Jesus’s own words state that God is not judging us, in fact He has given that over to Jesus. So for you to say “God is a righteous judge” while true, as well as true with Jesus, Jesus stated clearly this;

John 5: 22 “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”

So you need to decide to follow your doctrine that states God will judge men by the Law, or Jesus’ words that “the Father judges no one.” That is your decision.

Again if God is so “bound” by the Law, then you are stating some interesting things.

Man could obey the Law
By obeying the Law; man could be saved by it.
The purpose of the Law would be then to give salvation by works
The law could give eternal life

None of this is true.

Man cannot obey the Law, the Law’s purpose was solely to show we are sinful
We cannot be saved by obedience or our own works. And the purpose of the scripture itself is to lead us to Jesus as Jesus stated in John 5: 39 “You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Again, this is what Jesus states that seem to go against your doctrinal view.

I get it clearly John and I hope you do as I still have my doubts you do… again this is not a jab, but much of what I am stating is spiritually revealed and missed in many theology classes.

When I speak of “New Creation” it is both present reality (physical and spiritual) as opposed to John MacArthur who teaches it to be “only spiritual and in the future”. (That is a direct quote and I can get it for you later if you desire to hear it yourself. The New Creation will have in it a New Earth and a New Heaven so no it is not the present Heaven as this will pass away with the present earth… as Revelation teaches as well as other places in scripture. We will most likely disagree that it is a continuation, but I see it as the same as I will be the same person at the resurrection but in a resurrected body and so the heaven and earth also will be the same but clothed in perfection.

You stated that you disagreed with me that on when regeneration takes place (I think as you went into many other things we agree on.) yet if you disagree, then you disagree that salvation is both instant and a process. You disagree that it involves the renewing of the mind and that it comes to it fulfillment when Jesus returns as Hebrews Hebrews 9:27-28
“27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

So Salvation is not “done” yet, though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise that we are His.

Ephesians 1:11-14 “ 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Again, I think you need to re-read what I originally stated that you are stating you disagree with as I am stating as you restated, “salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.” For that is what I was saying when I stated; “Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirit in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs.”

If you disagree with this then what you are disagreeing with is Jesus own words again as He stated to Peter, “ 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.” (John 13: 10-11)

But truthfully we agree though you fail to see it for some reason.
. “to believe rightly”… which is a direct quote, I am happy to see that you are learning already! LOL! But I did not take you out of context at all I took you in context and showed you again where you were not stating things clearly as you want from others.
“ I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.”

So you are saying repentance is a “work” we must to as it is required for salvation? I hope not. I think you need to flesh out your definition of repentance and contrast it if you are unintentionally making it a “qualifying condition or work.”
Yet for the most part again, we seem to agree on how salvation comes.
Here as I stated. is that you miss that you are preoccupied about myself and Tony and yet state I “hate” when I share my concerns about very serious things concerning salvation of some of your “friends.” For I see that even”a covenant baptism” can mislead and cause one to have a false conversion. Yet, Chris Rosebrough has stated it is “baptismal regeneration” he believes in… are you going to hold him to account over that? I doubt it…
Nevertheless, to attribute the motive of “hate” to me while not so to yourself seems hypocritical… unless you also “hate” Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and Brian McLaren and so on.
“How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. “

LOL!

Yes you are right as Ken has no consistency. If it is against someone he is against, then he will call them names no matter what they show him as proof… he still calls me “semi pelagian” and in fact has many articles against the “arminians” in emergent… such as Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell. (Though I have not come across anything that about Rob Bell myself) I was going to link to this but it seems Ken’s site is down at this moment. I think that his actions should follow his beliefs and in his actions, this is what he has done in the past and there does not seem to be any sign of his quitting. So, again, unless you are advocating that we believe one thing and act another way other than from what we believe I am not sure why you are so worked up…


As far as works we are in agreement, then you also have issue with Ken and Ingrid as they are teaching “works righteousness.” They believe that you need do “things” to be holy and righteous. I do not as my righteousness, holiness and even my obedience is all imputed to me through Jesus Christ. (Romans 4,5,6 and so on)

“I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings.


Great! That is why I am here talking to you! Awesome… yet now I am wondering why you are taking so much offense in my calling you to clarity and to contend for that same said faith. The issue often, especially with Ingrid is she confuses style and personal preference with God’s holiness.

“Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.”

Therefore, with this you are “hating” Brian McLaren? In fact, Brian affirms all of this. Yet, we must never have Truth apart from the Person of Jesus Christ Who is truth as you quoted. How do you know Brian is not also on the side of Jesus…

Again, you attribute “hate” to me, yet state things like this… and see that you also can be perceived as having the same motive?

Therefore, I quote you to you;

“Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself”

“I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. “

Again, I have not seen this other than when you have misquoted someone on your blog or added to their thought what you thought you have seen. Now one is saying that Jesus is not the Only Way to salvation. Yet, there is so much there and you will not see where you are off here so I am not going to go deeper in this now with you.


“I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them.”

I personally walk in faith in the forgiveness of sin that Christ gave at the Cross. I believe in His finished works. I confess daily as I agree with God and live in agreement with Him. We have only a light difference here. Yet, to me I hear you are not resting in your own faith and have not accept fully the forgivness already given as you seek to repent daily. Hebrews 6: states “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Repentance is a one time thing but confession is forever. If you still repent then you still seek forgiveness of sins. If I offended you once but returned daily asking for forgiveness would you not get a little tired and wonder why I do no accept your forgiveness and move on? God forgave you at the cross.. Once for all you sins forgiven. Do a study on that phrase “once for all” and it will set you free! But, I see that there though I you still ask for forgiveness you already have and I choose by faith to walk in the forgiveness I have been given we both walk in faith in Christ.

“I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared.”

Then you do not contend for truth! (just kidding)…

Again, about God being “bound” … God is not bound to anything. For anything God chooses would be just for He is just. It is not out of Justice that God sent His only Son… but out of Love. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law, God is not bound to it nor was He. He loved us so much He became a man and died for us. This Substitutionary atonement (technically the propitiation of our sins which is much more than substitution) Jesus was the lamb of God that took away the sins of the world…

1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”

Since you did not comment on the rest of my statements, we will work out of what you did comment on.

However, notice that you seem to agree and even when you did disagree, you seemed to misunderstand me…

I hope that you can move from this accusatory feelings toward me and know I have no ill will toward you. I also thank you for taking the time to clarify some of you misspoken things and realize that people are people and no one is perfect. And mostly that we need give grace to all.

Be Blessed,
iggy

REB said...

I notice two things about Carlos, here.

1. He loves to converse with himself.
2. He looses track of who said what, because he is so busy playing both sides of the conversation.

That is a picture of an average human brain drunk on Emergent kool-aide. The whole head is sick and there is no soundness in it.

May God give you strength to endure, PB, if you choose to continue with this babbler. ;-)

Henry (Rick) Frueh said...

You talk about parsing words until they contain only one molecule each! There was a day, not so long ago, that almost every evangelical community would call Tony Jones a heretic. Today we play doctinal dodge ball and in so doing we inadvertantly lend some kind of tortured credibility.

We have more than enough information about the emergent movement to not only last a lifetime, but to count the entire sordid mess as worthless and not jest heading for a cliff but already over the side. Our mission isn't to investigate now, it is to warn believers and reach unsuspecting sinners before they are sucked into some New Age/Protestant/Roman Catholic/mystic/universalist amalgam that doesn't resemble the authentic gospel at all.

The only redeeming feature of such an interview is that we hear it straight from their own mouths. They do good deeds and they are affable and sincere, but their doctrine is deadly. Grievous wolves. Pray for them as well.

iggy said...

JOhn,

I also post ed this on my own site...

Again I hope you see there is more in common with than not in common.

BTW what kind of "Bike" do you have. I had several over the years. One was a special construction wide-glide front end with and 80inch evo and a 78 shovel-head transmission all in an Santee hard-tail frame. We also had a Sportster hugger and a Honda Shadow... The Shadow was and 80 inch and it was only year they made it in that cc instead of the 750... fun bike... also we had a Yamaha route66 which again was a fun bike 250cc


Be blessed,
iggy

Doug said...

To Reb & Rick & John,

Hi Guys,

To John: Why did you cave so easily? You admit that using the word "cannot" was a poor choice? Since when is using a biblical word a poor choice? I am confused....

To Reb,

I have notice that myself, and think you have made an excellent observation here. I don't see how they can have a conversation with someone when they fail to understand even in the slightest bit what language the person is using. Someone said that it was like trying to nail jello to the wall. I think they were right. this is the second such conversation I have had an they have both left me nauseous.

To Rick,

Amen brother! i am rethinking my study of Tony jones new book. I doubt that much good will come of it, and think it will end up on the shelf next to my collection of heresies with a "Mr. Yuk" sticker on it.

peace,
Doug

Pastorboy said...

Doug,

I didn't cave, if you read it closely, it really doesn't matter the use of our English terms; he cannot and he will not. His sovereignty is outside of our definition of sovereignty, it is a weak word to describe that attribute because He is high and lifted up, and, outside of what he has revealed to us, unknowable and ununderstandable by human beings. In his sovereignty, he can choose to bind Himself in this dimension by His laws, like a human judge is bound by the law. He must punish, because this is what He has revealed that He will do.

Doug said...

Hi John,

Ok, but I still think when we back off on Biblical words we give their cause ammo. Thanks for the explaination.

Peace.

iggy said...

Doug,

I have answered your questions. Over and over... if I missed one please restate it and I will try again.

Also, I pointed to the original language that there is a difference in the translation between "Cannot" and "will not" go and check this with a Greek scholar instead of just trusting and English translation as a "biblical" word".

It is like this... did God create evil? This is only stated in the KJV and maybe a couple of others. It is held by KJVonly people as it is "a biblical word". Also, it is like the word love. We have one word in English yet in Greek there are at least three... each with a difference nuance from sexual love to brotherly love to unconditional love... to use "love" as the only "biblical word" would make us miss that God's love is different from brotherly love and when Peter is reinstalled in the Gospel, we actually miss what is going on in just the English.

Again... I will answer your question I missed.

REB: I am judged and condemned by you not matter what I do. There is not one ounce of forgiveness though there has never been an offense to anyone let alone you. So I have not answer and give you no answer accept pray you find Grace, Mercy and Love so that you may give these away to others instead of attack them. I have not made this about "me" you have. I have not attacked John on a personal level, and only have tried really hard to talk about his theology.

John: All I ask is you look closely at what I have written to you and realize that we are not that far apart. Mostly be blessed.


iggy

Henry (Rick) Frueh said...

I find it immaterial and irrelevant for us to attempt to define the minutia concerning God's sovereignty which is far beyond us. Also, if everyone is forgiven but those who don't enter into the Life of Christ by faith are still lost, then what does it matter?

And when people like Tony do an obvious doctrinal dance and then people defend and define it as something else, well then there is no more to say. The whole emergent thing has taken on a Bourgeoisie air and in fact has quickly set up their own set of "MacArthurs".

I am listeing to "Requiem for the Church" by Rick Frueh. Now there's a real hypocrite!

XDPaul said...

Iggy, you are making a contradiction out of two unlike properties: physical possibility and character trait.

No one has denied the theoretical physical possibility that God, in His sovereignity could, in his omnipotence, lie.

HOWEVER, that is not what is being debated. There are persons who fall short in their understanding (there is no other way to say this) of God's character.

In other words, God "theoretically" could be a prideful God. He could be capricious or cruel. He could lie.

But he is not. His character is not that of a liar, of cruelty, of pride.

Over and over again in His Word and through his followers, He demonstrates him to have immutable characteristics: loving, just and humble.

It isn't physics that prevents him from lying. It is character.

Thus, he cannot lie. Keep in mind that this is the same God who "could" have bypassed the torture and death of His own Son. This is the same God who "could" have destroyed us after we stained creation. This is the same God who "could" have kept the rainbow to Himself, "could" have told the prophets to keep their mouths shut, "could" have conceded dominion of a fallen planet to the beautiful Satan, "could" have withheld eternal life, "could" have let the rocks cry out...

This is a debate between the little "g" god of "could have" and the God Who was, Who is and Who is to come.

So, maybe it would help to clarify the debate:

God "could have" lied. But he can't.

iggy said...

xdpaul,

I think you are having the same issue I had in reading John's reply to me as he has mixed my "open letter" in his response and used a color that was very close. In fact if you read the piece closer you have just restated what I stated in the first place. For the original go here to see my letter more clearly without the intertwining of John's thoughts and mine.

thanks though!

iggy

XDPaul said...

I may have been unclear. I do not believe that God is capable of lying, much in the same way that he is not capable of not existing, even though he is all-powerful.

God is not a nihilist, nor deceptive. Those are characteristics of his which prevent him from negating Himself or lying to us. This in no way "humanizes" nor "diminishes" his omnipotence.

God has a very defined personality, and unchanging qualities. To be sure, no man can know those qualities perfectly. I for one, aside from Christ (and then by His grace), can not even see the face of God and live.

But that doesn't mean that I can't know Him, or (more accurately) begin to know Him "before we see things face to face."

There are some things I know: and whether you say God "can" not lie or "will" not lie is something of a quibble unless the debate is really (as I suspect it is) whether God "does or does not" lie.

He does not lie. On that, we both agree. If He does not lie, then He can be trusted to do right. Too often, I get the impression by the argument that "God can lie," that God, indeed "does lie, has lied, or might lie in the future."

This, of course, is folly. "All-powerful" does not mean "all things to every one." It doesn't mean one is capable of telling the truth and lying about that truth simultaneously (a negated truth is, in fact, powerless.)

Let me put it another way: there is no inherent power in a lie. Therefore, lies only draw their "strength" from the expectation of truth. Because lies are, on their own, powerless, what bonus power does the all-powerful get from a lie?

That's right. None. Lies are outside the domain of the all-powerful. They are zero-sum power, or nil power. Non-power is a feature not known or exercised by the One with all power.

iggy said...

xdpaul,

Hey, I agree and in fact your points are what I was trying to convey to John here. John's over simplified assertion that "God can't lie" while it may be so in the simplest sense is not True. God has free will and "can" do and "does" do as He please.

The debate is not whether God lies or not... I do not nor John do nto say that. rather as you have pointed out there are nuances that are often lost in translations and in stating "God can't"

I was trying to help John understand the nuances as he seems to want more clarity from others but still uses squishy language himself which can lead to not clearly expressing Truth that in Scripture.

If you want to carry on this conversation we can do so on my blog.

Thanks again,
iggy