2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry".

Saturday, March 29, 2008

Why Emergent 'Christians' like Obama for President


I have often wondered, and have questioned my emergent and other friends who claim to follow Christ, how they can vote for Obama, who is radically opposed to life in that he is for embryonic stem cell research (where you kill a baby to harvest stem cells), and is for third tri-mester abortions ( the murder of a viable fetus for any reason, including birth control!)

I think that I have discovered the reason...They worship the same god of their own creation! This god sacrificed his one and only son so that people could follow their own way of righteousness and gain heaven! They follow the same marginalized god that will allow those who follow other doctrines like Islam, Hinduism, and even no religion if they are moral 'good people' god will be impressed with their works and allow them to enter heaven!

In a recent speech, Obama suggests the following:
"

"While answering a question about his Christian faith, Obama said he believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and through God’s grace and mercy he could have “everlasting life,” according to the Los Angeles Times.

But he also believes Jews and Muslims and non-believers who live moral lives are as much “children of God” as he is, according to The Associated Press.

As an example, he spoke about his late mother who was “not a believer.”

"[S]he was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known," Obama said, according to the Times. "I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to."


Folks, being kind and decent does not get you into heaven. Being generous does not get you into heaven. These are fruits that Christians should exibit, but we do not enter heaven through our own goodness. Rather, God says that we enter into heaven only through a foreign righteousness that he gives us through faith in Christ alone. You cannot get that righteousness from God unless you believe what He said and who He sent. 

Obama's most famous supporter, Oprah, being raised a Baptist believes the same thing Obama does, and she promotes Williamson and Tolle as authors who can show different paths to heaven. Reading Tony Jones' book "The New Christians" makes me understand why he is a rabid Obama supporter; for he believes in the same restoration theology that his Pastor Doug Pagitt does~that is that all people on the day of judgement will be renewed and restored by God regardless of their faith on earth. I have no doubt that even though Shane Claibourne would want Jesus for president, he would settle for Obama.

Birds of a feather...

23 comments:

Corey said...

You're right. You've pegged us.

YES WE CAN!!

E said...

haha

yep.

hey, dude. read about the issues, learn about what the candidates actually represent, and spend a week studying which methods and policies ACTUALLY reduce the number of abortions, rather than parroting some right-wing pundit who doesn't understand the issues either.

then come back and say something that makes sense.

ta-ta.

Pastorboy said...

Pretty gutless, E~

This site does not allow anonomys comments for this reason. I have researched the issues. What issues are you speaking about? Do you need to see Obama's voting records? Do you need to see his party's platform? Do you need a recording of the quote he made regarding heaven and who gets to go there? Do you need me to quote chapter and verse from TNC? Do I need to bring a recording of Doug Pagitt spouting universalism? Where do I need to do research?

Nice fly-by, Pal...But you are WAY off.

Leave an e-mail address next time at least. I will give you any background information you demand.

M. Van Drie said...

So what candidate should a good Christian vote for?

Pastorboy said...

A good Christian should vote his or her conscience, informed by the Word of God, a season of prayer, and the politician's platform.

Common sense also helps.

If you believe that a candidate is the best for our country who is obviously against life, and would have a foul-mouthed, racist pastor and would burden an already burdened American taxpayer further by bringing about universal health care, then vote for Obama.

Corey said...

PB said: "A good Christian should vote his or her conscience, informed by the Word of God, a season of prayer, and the politician's platform.

Common sense also helps."


Corey: I would love to see you back that up with Scripture.


PB said: "If you believe that a candidate is the best for our country who is obviously against life, and would have a foul-mouthed, racist pastor and would burden an already burdened American taxpayer further by bringing about universal health care, then vote for Obama."


Corey: If you believe that a candidate is best for our country who is obviously against life (as he supported and continues to support the invasion of another sovereign country resulting in the deaths of countless thousands), and would have as his 'spiritual guide' someone like the racist and violent televangelist Rod Parsley who said this:

"I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore."

and a candidate who is clearly opposed to life by not caring about or attempting to find a solution for the tens of thousands of children and adults who cannot afford health care in this country, then I guess McCain is your man.

Stop being so ridiculously pompous and one-sided. Stop pretending that you have "THE CHRISTIAN ANSWER" for everything. All of these issues have layers of nuance that you are apparently incapable of comprehending.

M. Van Drie said...

So pastorboy who do you think is the best candidate and why that is the Christian way to vote.

jazzact13 said...

--So pastorboy who do you think is the best candidate and why that is the Christian way to vote.--

Why does pastorboy's pointing out of Obama's obviously wrong-headed religious ideas necessitate that he must endorse anyone?

--If you believe that a candidate is best for our country who is obviously against life (as he supported and continues to support the invasion of another sovereign country resulting in the deaths of countless thousands),--

blah blah blah

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraq-042005.pdf

Corey said...

blah blah blah

Jazz, thanks for your thoughtful addition to the conversation.

jazzact13 said...

--Jazz, thanks for your thoughtful addition to the conversation.--

As I said before, whether to you or to someone else, I'm not a conversationalist.

And I would guess this means you're not going to investigate the link. Kind of figured that.

Corey said...

I perused it, but honestly, I don't have time to read the entire 108 page report.

However, look at the list of names (below) who sign off on this organization. It's a "who's who" of 1990's neo-cons. There isn't a centrist in the bunch. Do you really think that you're going to get a balanced view from these guys who have been advocating for the invasion of Iraq for decades? Of course their report justifies the invasion!

Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz

jazzact13 said...

--Do you really think that you're going to get a balanced view from these guys who have been advocating for the invasion of Iraq for decades? Of course their report justifies the invasion!--

Funny, I feel the same way whenever I vist sojo, but in the opposite direction.

But I'm glad to see that your response is the ignore the claims that throw around names. I guess you really don't want reality to get in the way of your lib utopian plans.

Corey said...

Jazz. We agree on something! I don't like sojo either!

I'm not disregarding the neo-con's claims. Rather, I don't think that the comments section of an obscure blog is probably not the best place to discuss these issues (particularly with someone who doesn't believe in 'conversation' ;)

I guess my main point was not so much to attack McCain, but to say that many of the critiques PB levied against Obama can be offered against McCain (or most any other politician) as well. I sincerely doubt whether a politician can rise to that level of power without remarkably and drastically compromising their faith.

As a result, I think it's a bit silly to hold public officials to a moral and faithful standard of biblical christianity, because NONE of them will pass muster. When we pretend that one party is the 'Christian' party because of the issue of abortion (and I am pro-life), we often turn blind eyes to the compromises that our politicians and parties of choice have made (at best) or justify them with bad hermeneutics (at worst).

Pastorboy said...

I guess its time I popped in here again...

Well, Corey, I have not endorsed anybody yet. And actually, my political thinking does go deeper and does look into nuances. My main point with this post is that Obama is 1. Against protection of life in the womb and b. Wrong in his theology.

That being said, Bush saying that Muslims and Christians worship the same God shows that Bush is also wrong in his theology.

I do not think that politics or politicians can save this country. I think the only change can come about when people are born again. I think the only time we will be ruled rightly is when Jesus Christ returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. No democratic or republican president will do that; no millions of emergent christians trying to usher in the kingdom of God on earth will do that. Only Jesus will do that.

I still think it very important that we as Christians look at what we can do in the political process to make a positive impact. But we must also make an individual effort to live like Christ and win the lost.

Corey said...

PB,
I agree with everything that you just said and every emergent Christian that I know would agree as well.

But don't you think that your initial post here was simply ridiculous rhetoric? Do you really think that emerging Christians like Obama because of his religious beliefs and so they can create a god in their own image?

Pastorboy said...

Because many of the books that I have read from Emergent Authors, including Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell and others have stated the very same thing (in more and complicated words) that everyone will go to heaven, regardless of their religious background. That is what Obama stated regarding his mom.

Dave Metz said...

just as an fyi...

the bible doesn't say that we can only get salvation through faith alone.

in fact, the only place it says "faith alone" is in James where he says that we are NOT justified by faith alone.

the bible teaches in ephesians 2:8-9 (which, in a previous post or comment some one erroneously referenced as 3:9-10) that we are saved by grace. we are saved because God has given us His unmerited favor. we experience that grace because of faith, but we are not saved by grace. the way you set it up in your post has faith as being a work in which we must do to earn salvation. we cannot earn salvation... we can only experience God's grace.

Dave Metz said...

oh, and by the way... i am pro-life. i am torn between mccain and obama (mccain is not consistently against abortion and obama is obviously not) but not just because of the abortion issue. i am (or try to be) CONSISTENTLY pro-life. this means i am against war, euthanasia, the death penalty, etc. human life is not ours to take... whether as individuals or as a government.

mccain wants to keep us in a war. that is not pro-life. now, the numbers seem to work to show that abortion is the issue ending more lives than the war in iraq (abortion kills roughly 4,500 babies a day), but i don't think mccain will be any better than obama on abortion (i could be wrong which is why i am torn on the election) but i know obama will be better than mccain on war. it's not a cut and dry issue. plus the economic policies are difficult as well. free market is based upon greed. socialism is supposed to be based on equality. in theory, Christians should be socialist (since the early church seemed to be). however, socialism tends to produce tyranny. but free market produces more and more poor and is set up for the wealthy to remain wealthy and get more and more wealth (which comes from somewhere.... usually off the backs of those less fortunate). if we were truly biblical, we would practice the year of jubilee and cancel all debts every 7 years... i don't see that happening, especially not from the republicans.

The Seeking Disciple said...

One person a solid disciple of Jesus should NOT vote for is Obama! His abortion record and views speaks loud enough for that. While I don't believe John McCain is great, he is not as liberal as Obama.

Derek said...

abortion should not be a political issue. that is the duty of the church. drop that, and what do you have?

Virginia said...

Ethics and reform…that’s the big message being sent out by both campaigns …right? The “Conservative” base is jumping for joy over John McCain and his Honor…but, have they asked themselves a few ethical questions?

If big Profit'tier from Alcohol , Tobacco , or Firearms…… were running for President of the United States of America, and telling folks: “Americans First” Would you believe him or her? What do you think would come first? The people or the profits?

Here is a look into the PROVEN ethics that separate both candidates.

Since you are reading this on-line…I know that you, unlike John McCain, who wants to be the leader of the free world…have the power to Snopes or Google any of the following….

Did you know? If John McCain wins the Presidential Election; then, “The True King of Beers ” will be in charge? How’s that for your “conservative” candidate?

It all started when John McCain came home from being a P.O.W., …..He then re-married to a Budweiser heiress, (Cindy McCain, who inherited a major share in a Budweiser Distribution Empire.) Soon after, John McCain went into politics. With his wife’s family empire and influence , John McCain was soon : “The Senator brought to you by Budweiser!”

It's not MY problem! Or, is it....(....I do drive.....) ...then... it occurred to me:

Thanks to the folks in government, you know, the people paid to have our best interest at heart...in an effort to bring down the soaring cost of health care ....even the big tobacco companies have had to surrender some of their profits to help their victims!

So, where is the Honorable Senator John McCain on the issue of helping Americans who’s lives have been affected or destroyed by HIS product? Remember...."Americans First?”

John chose to remove himself from the political issue all together so he could serve on the board of Budweiser instead! His profits were more important than the issues….Very Honorable? He should not have been allowed to make that choice. As a Senator, he should be able to discuss and be willing to help with ALL of the issues that Americans face!

The Senator from Arizona chose to be one less voice heard in government fighting on behalf of millions of innocent Americans devastated by the big three: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. All of these then in turn, put a major stress on the cost of Health care and Jails...Where does it end?

How can John avoid one subject and think he can understand the others.... They are all tied together!

I guess this is why Senator McCain has had so much time to focus on war?

Ethics? What a unique position John and Cindy were in to truly help Americans and not their bottom line. John could have said, “Look, we are not even profiting off of this…” People are going to drink, but, we have done everything we can to help fight its devastating effects." "I take care of myself and my family and I know how tempting it is to take the easy way out….” "My wife and I care more about Americans and their overall well being." All of the money collected from alcohol sales and crimes should go BACK to the ones affected by its devastating effects. Right? But, John was too concerned with "his integrity" to join in on the issue!

If John and Cindy are OK with having so many houses that he can't count them all....all gained from the profits from death and destruction, then so be it. He can justify his lifestyle to M.A.D.! I have more respect for the integrity of the man moping the floor!

So to me, its not how many houses John and Cindy have, now the issue is: how many people have they helped to become homeless, parent-less or child-less?

Who was it that said, “With much given, much is expected?” Isn't’t that a fundamental premise of conservative values?

What an ironic twist when I realized that John McCain never had to enter into politics to help create jobs…Just look at how many jobs the McCain’s have helped to create as a result of all of the alcohol related crimes across America!

I look at Senator Obama, I see that he could have lived a lavish life pointing a finger at one side of the law or another, as a high priced lawyer. But, instead, like it or not, Barack Obama chose to LIFT a finger! ~That to me, IS working from the bottom up by putting the Americans at the bottom… FIRST!

I wonder how many women and children are victims of alcohol abuse and end up pregnant? Oh well… too bad… If "The King Of Beers" is in charge, No choice for her! The irony is overwhelming!

Senator Obama seemed to have his finger closer to the pulse of Americans when he said, “We have to address the issue of WHY so many women are pro-choice.” ~Any Ideas John?

Sincerely,
VA. from PA.

Randy Bowman said...

"I sincerely doubt whether a politician can rise to that level of power without remarkably and drastically compromising their faith.

As a result, I think it's a bit silly to hold public officials to a moral and faithful standard of biblical christianity, because NONE of them will pass muster. When we pretend that one party is the 'Christian' party because of the issue of abortion (and I am pro-life), we often turn blind eyes to the compromises that our politicians and parties of choice have made (at best) or justify them with bad hermeneutics (at worst)."

Amen, brother.
Thank you for your contriubtion - I wholeheartedly agree.

I am tired of the tired politics of fear, divisiveness, and polarization that has invaded religion and politics.

Also, for anyone who thinks that Bush is a saint, I'm reading a book right now that is about how Bush ran on the conservative ticket and then did basically nothing for them in eight years, called "Tempting Faith". It's criticized for being bitter, but it's not, and is mostly fearful defense by those that don't want to believe it.

Shaye said...

Hey this message is for Corey, Obama, Oprah, and all of you other emergent church folks....the Bible has a few things to say about you: "false prophets, false teacher, a wolf in sheep's clothing, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness...." the list goes on and on.
True believers of the Lord Jesus Christ are more scared of people like you than any Muslim or Hindu or Radical. Why? Because you are misleading thousands of people and making them think that they can get to heaven by all these other means.
THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS AND YOU ARE A HERETIC IF YOU BELIEVE IN OR TEACH IT!!!!!!!!
Why don't you people read the Bible, examine your false doctrine, and then have something worthwhile to say.
The Bible teaches nothing other than two paths...one path that is wide and leads to destruction, and the other path that is narrow and leads to life. That narrow path is achieved only by faith in Jesus, being born again by the Spirit, and keeping with faith and repentance.
So....if you are truly a follower of Christ, and you believe the Bible, you are naturally going to be politically conservative. I don't see how you can't be!!!!!
Emergent Church leaders, I am begging you....stop your false teaching! Repent!